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"Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:53 pm
by setarip_old
To date there is only one legitimate, commercial Blu-ray disc ("The Losers") that has been proven to contain this insidious protection - and only a very few hardware players (all PS3s with firmware of v.3.15 and higher) and two or three standalone Blu-ray players that "see" and process it.
However, based on its initial success, we will surely see more legitimate, commercial Blu-ray discs released containing "Cinavia" (the upcoming "Karate Kid", with Jackie Chan, is purportedly the next one scheduled to contain "Cinavia") and more (built since the third quarter of 2009) standalone Blu-ray players that "see" and process it.
As a first step toward dealing with this protection, this thread will be established as a "sticky", to be used ONLY for reporting legitimate, commercial discs (Title and Region) that, WHEN YOU MAKE A BACKUP COPY, the copies exhibit "Cinavia" protection (Onscreen references to "Cinavia") and the player (make and model number) that disc was being played on.
THIS CAN'T BE STRESSED ENOUGH - Please DO NOT make any reports based on anything "other than" BACKUP COPIES YOU YOURSELF HAVE MADE of legitimate, commercial discs, because doing so will render this effort useless. "Other than" includes any and all downloads, screeners, cams, copies obtained from others, etc.
Thank you.
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:20 pm
by skittle
suggest renaming thread to "Disc's with 'Cinavia' watermark protection"
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:46 am
by setarip_old
@skittle
But it pertains to hardware as well as discs...
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:47 am
by skittle
then perhaps two threads
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:22 pm
by setarip_old
Same topic ("Cinavia"), same thread.
The idea (Which, btw, was discussed in advance) is to have all factual "Cinavia"-related reporting made in this single "sticky" thread.
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:48 am
by mechanic47
Just a note cinavia is definately on Karate Kid 2010. Its printed on the blu ray cover.
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:23 am
by goingbust
Help me out at understanding this. I understand why content makers would want to put the Cinavia watermark on their content. But why would any device makers want to include support for it? It just inconveniences their users and they are not required to do so by law. In addition, as far as I can see, the content can't force itself to be played only on Cinavia complaint hardware. So except for hardware makers that also produce content (i.e. Sony, and I see that the Playstation 3 was one of the first devices to incorporate this), why would any hardware makers want to support it in any way?
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:28 am
by setarip_old
@goingbust
Hi!
Short answer is, by contractual agreement, if the hardware manufacturers want to continue to be able to display the Blu-ray logo(s), they are obliged to make their equipment do various things - like look for and react to AACS protection (or the lack of) and now Cinavia...
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:08 am
by goingbust
setarip_old wrote:@goingbust
Hi!
Short answer is, by contractual agreement, if the hardware manufacturers want to continue to be able to display the Blu-ray logo(s), they are obliged to make their equipment do various things - like look for and react to AACS protection (or the lack of) and now Cinavia...
That's all fine and good, but it doesn't require that computers process Cinavia watermarks. So my main computer (via VLC) and Media Center computer (via Media Center) play Karate Kid, for example, just fine. Why would I even want to burn it onto an expensive Blu Ray blank to play on my PS3 anyway? That seems like a bad deal Cinavia or no Cinavia.
I am betting it has very limited impact. Very, very limited impact.
I say to these Cinavia asswipes: Come, Get Some!
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:19 am
by setarip_old
but it doesn't require that computers process Cinavia watermarks.
It's pretty much agreed that software Blu-ray players (and, therefore, PCs) will never be party to "Cinavia" protection - because that software could/would almost immediately be reverse engineered - and, therefore, render ALL versions of such protection useless...
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:23 am
by goingbust
setarip_old wrote:but it doesn't require that computers process Cinavia watermarks.
It's pretty much agreed that software Blu-ray players (and, therefore, PCs) will never be party to "Cinavia" protection - because that software could/would almost immediately be reverse engineered - and, therefore, render ALL versions of such protection useless...
So they are relying on a trade secret to protect exactly what the watermark does?
That may work for Coca Cola who can do it beyond closed factory doors, but these guys let software into the wild. If it is not on PC software, it is on firmware on these BD players. Even if that was never hacked (which it will be), then it is imprinted in the data on every disc with the watermark. The hackers just love a challenge. It will be reverse engineered regardless of where they deploy it (and then a stripping mechanism will be created). Yet, it doesn't really matter at all because they aren't deploying it on the one player that matters.
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:26 pm
by SamuriHL
setarip_old wrote:but it doesn't require that computers process Cinavia watermarks.
It's pretty much agreed that software Blu-ray players (and, therefore, PCs) will never be party to "Cinavia" protection - because that software could/would almost immediately be reverse engineered - and, therefore, render ALL versions of such protection useless...
Wanna bet? You'd be wrong on that. The software players are also *REQUIRED* to implement it. Sooner rather than later. They are treated no different than a hardware player. This isn't BD+ we're talking about. Reverse engineernig Cinavia from a software player doesn't automatically remove it. Just because you have the algorithm that detects it doesn't mean you can remove it safely.
Trust me, it's coming for software players. That's a fact.
Now, that being said, it's ONLY coming to commercial BD software players. VLC, MPC-HC, etc....not a chance. Only licensed players are going to be required to enable Cinavia detection.
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:18 pm
by setarip_old
Wanna bet? You'd be wrong on that
Time will tell ;>}
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:42 pm
by goingbust
SamuriHL wrote:setarip_old wrote:but it doesn't require that computers process Cinavia watermarks.
It's pretty much agreed that software Blu-ray players (and, therefore, PCs) will never be party to "Cinavia" protection - because that software could/would almost immediately be reverse engineered - and, therefore, render ALL versions of such protection useless...
Wanna bet? You'd be wrong on that. The software players are also *REQUIRED* to implement it. Sooner rather than later. They are treated no different than a hardware player. This isn't BD+ we're talking about. Reverse engineernig Cinavia from a software player doesn't automatically remove it. Just because you have the algorithm that detects it doesn't mean you can remove it safely.
Trust me, it's coming for software players. That's a fact.
Now, that being said, it's ONLY coming to commercial BD software players. VLC, MPC-HC, etc....not a chance. Only licensed players are going to be required to enable Cinavia detection.
But the major thing I said is that the non-BD software players such as VLC will never implement it. Media Center may never implement it if it never supports BD. So once the content is "jailbroken" from the BD using something like MakeMKV, it doesn't matter if that watermark is still there or not, it will play fine on software media players (maybe not software BD players). So who cares? Who is going to write it back to an expensive physical BD disc anyway? I hate to tell you this, but BD is a dying format even while it is still growing because the true final format is no physical disc at all and it is only a couple of years away.
Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:07 pm
by SamuriHL
setarip_old wrote:Wanna bet? You'd be wrong on that
Time will tell ;>}
Indeed it will.
I wish you were right, tbh. I don't want to see it implemented in software players, but, unfortunately, I know for a fact that at least one of them is working on adding it as we speak. Annoying.