Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

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icaruscollapse
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:34 pm

Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by icaruscollapse » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:58 pm

Two quick questions here, and I've included a screenshot for reference.

Image
Click to make that sucker bigger.

So I'm trying to rip A Bug's Life, and I'm just a little confused at a few things from the above screenshot.

First off, there are three titles that are all 35 chapter(s), and 21.2 GB. When I expand the titles, they all look exactly like the one I expanded in the screenshot. The only difference is the source file name, 00018.mpls, 00019.mpls, and 01199.mpls. I tried booting the disc up in my Blu-Ray player (A PS3), but when I pushed select to see the title info, it just said "Title 1", which doesn't seem to match any of those, so I'm not sure what to do with that. Is there a difference between then? Why would there be three? Most importantly, how do I know I'm picking the correct one, so I don't have to rip the disc multiple times?

Secondly, I'm not sure I understand the audio track checkboxes. I'm not talking about the DD 2/0 English track, I know that's a commentary track, but why is there a DTS HD Lossless English track (unchecked), with the DTS 3/2+1 English track underneath it? When I ripped Wall-E the other day, I checked the top box, and I ended up with a rip with two audio tracks that were (seemingly) identical, so I'm not sure what the point is of the top header if it's unchecked and identical to the one below it.

I tried to do some preliminary searching, but I couldn't find anything, and any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

icaruscollapse
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:34 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by icaruscollapse » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:32 pm

Well, I figured out why there are three titles with the same length/size/number of chapters...

Image

So yeah, I guess the three have most of the same movie, but the opening chapter is different to match the different languages... So now I know why there are three, but there doesn't seem to be any way to see how to determine this before I rip the movie. I noticed the log when it was opening the Blu-Ray, and it was seeming to just arbitrarily make titles in sequential order, so to match the Title 1 I saw on my PS3, I'd be looking at a title that is 10 minutes long, clearly not what I'm looking for.

There has to be some way to figure this out that doesn't involve using trial and error, where each "error" is a wasted 45 minutes.

Am I missing something here?

icaruscollapse
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:34 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by icaruscollapse » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:02 pm

Does anyone have any tips to avoid this in the future, or is this movie unique in it's practices of multiple title playlists?

Wasabi
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:09 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by Wasabi » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:14 pm

icaruscollapse wrote:Secondly, I'm not sure I understand the audio track checkboxes. I'm not talking about the DD 2/0 English track, I know that's a commentary track, but why is there a DTS HD Lossless English track (unchecked), with the DTS 3/2+1 English track underneath it? When I ripped Wall-E the other day, I checked the top box, and I ended up with a rip with two audio tracks that were (seemingly) identical, so I'm not sure what the point is of the top header if it's unchecked and identical to the one below it.

Blu-Rays have the extra room required for huge lossless audio tracks. The designers were still space conscious, however. So instead of having the DTS-HD lossless track and the lossy DTS track stored as two separate streams, they came up with a way to use the standard lossy track as a component of the lossless track (called the "DTS core"). Then a second stream is added which is the mathematical difference between the lossy track and the lossless track.

As you already discovered, the actual audio content is exactly the same. The outer checkbox is the huge lossless version, with substantial quality gains (up to eight 24-bit channels @ 96 kHz) over the lossy DTS track, which is exactly the same DTS 3/2+1 format that you're probably familiar with on standard DVDs.

dtblair
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by dtblair » Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:33 pm

As you already discovered, the actual audio content is exactly the same. The outer checkbox is the huge lossless version, with substantial quality gains (up to eight 24-bit channels @ 96 kHz) over the lossy DTS track, which is exactly the same DTS 3/2+1 format that you're probably familiar with on standard DVDs.
I am unable to play the lossless (TrueHD, DTS_MA, or LPCM) currently on my system as I have not made the jump to an ASUS Xonar HDAV(too many bugs and can only use TMT as the player) or similar bitstream audio card that my Integra DTC-9.8 can decode . I don't know what others are using to playback HD audio (maybe 7.1 analog out or the new ATI video card?), but I'm hoping that that my OPPO BDP-83 with soon handle this through DLNA streaming. In the interim, I think it is important to always click on the outer HD box to include the lossless stream because you can use get the DTS or DD standard core which most everything can play. If you don't, then sometime in the future, you will have to re-rip the bluray to get the HD audio. To me it would make sense to have the default for lossless checked on.

By the way, are they people out there that can playback the HD audio from the mkv file, and if so, what hardware/software are you using? I would be interested if they have a HDMI solution. Thanks

dtblair
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by dtblair » Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:44 pm

icaruscollapse wrote:Does anyone have any tips to avoid this in the future, or is this movie unique in it's practices of multiple title playlists?
So far what I have found is that if the different titles have different sizes, there are different versions on the disk. An example of this is Close encounters of the Third Kind. It has the original theatrical release, the DVD release (which Spielberg hated) and the final "director's cut". The best way to determine this is to Google the bluray or play the main menu on you player and see what playback options there are. For disks like A bug's Life, I've always grabbed the first title which is the English default on US disks.

icaruscollapse
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:34 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by icaruscollapse » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:23 pm

Wasabi wrote:Blu-Rays have the extra room required for huge lossless audio tracks. The designers were still space conscious, however. So instead of having the DTS-HD lossless track and the lossy DTS track stored as two separate streams, they came up with a way to use the standard lossy track as a component of the lossless track (called the "DTS core"). Then a second stream is added which is the mathematical difference between the lossy track and the lossless track.

As you already discovered, the actual audio content is exactly the same. The outer checkbox is the huge lossless version, with substantial quality gains (up to eight 24-bit channels @ 96 kHz) over the lossy DTS track, which is exactly the same DTS 3/2+1 format that you're probably familiar with on standard DVDs.
Alright, so it sounds like I should be ripping the lossless, then. Since you say the DTS Core is a part of the lossless track, do I need to select both to rip lossless, or if I just select the lossless option (and uncheck the default of 3/2+1), will that suffice?

Picking DTS Passthru in my audio options in my encoder (Handbrake) will keep that lossless audio, right?
dtblair wrote:So far what I have found is that if the different titles have different sizes, there are different versions on the disk. An example of this is Close encounters of the Third Kind. It has the original theatrical release, the DVD release (which Spielberg hated) and the final "director's cut". The best way to determine this is to Google the bluray or play the main menu on you player and see what playback options there are. For disks like A bug's Life, I've always grabbed the first title which is the English default on US disks.
The problem is, with A Bug's Life, the three titles are identical in size and length, so there's no way to differentiate. I picked the first one, assuming it would be English, but the end result was the picture I posted above. I guess it's just trial and error, then.

dtblair
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by dtblair » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:39 pm

I check both the lossless and the core DTS/DD just in case. I had read that blurays include the core automatically so that playback is possible on systems w/o HD audio decoding. I'm not sure whether MakeMKV includes the core defaults if you don't check the box. I have found some problems with disks that have LPCM playback in that not all have a subtree option. In those cases I always check the next audio option down whether it be DTS or DD, etc.

The Bug's Life thing is weird because I have it and only ripped the first stream. Maybe yours is a different version?

Don't know about Handbreak, but DirectShow and MPC allow you to select any of the audio streams

icaruscollapse
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:34 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by icaruscollapse » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:34 pm

I can select any of the streams in Handbrake, but if I have both, then both just say "DTS 5.1 English" or something like that, and I have no way to tell them apart.

litlgi74
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:38 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by litlgi74 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:03 pm

So how are those playing HD Audio doing so... I have an Oppo BDP-83... It only plays the Standard DTS. If I check the HD and Standard in MakeMKV... My Oppo can see both audio versions but only plays the standard DTS :(.

Is there a way to fix this.

I have also noticed that if I fast forward, pause, or anything other than play the MKV.... my player freezes...

PS... My Oppo is connected to my Mac Mini using Twonky as my Media Server... Not sure if there could be a problem there?

Thanks for this awesome program.

dtblair
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by dtblair » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:20 pm

litlgi74 wrote:So how are those playing HD Audio doing so... I have an Oppo BDP-83... It only plays the Standard DTS. If I check the HD and Standard in MakeMKV... My Oppo can see both audio versions but only plays the standard DTS :(.

Is there a way to fix this.

I have also noticed that if I fast forward, pause, or anything other than play the MKV.... my player freezes...

PS... My Oppo is connected to my Mac Mini using Twonky as my Media Server... Not sure if there could be a problem there?

Thanks for this awesome program.
I also have the OPPO 83 and have been involved with their forums.

1. OPPO currently doesn't support HD audio (other than LPCM) through the network interface. I have not been able to test the USB port as I don't have a 30GB thumb drive.

2. The network interface on the OPPO is still beta. Fast forwarding works on DVDs but causes freezing on high bit-rate files

I have tried multiple DLNA servers and have had no luck streaming HD MKV rips of bluray. I always get stuttering and freezing. Also a known bug is that the OPPO doesn't handle VC-1 format files over the ethernet interface. Are your files the complete 20-30GB full HD rips or are they compressed through Handbrake or BD-RB? I would be very interested in finding out how you are handling full size files through the OPPO. If it working, what are your Twonky settings? Thanks

litlgi74
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:38 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by litlgi74 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:21 pm

My files are the full HD rip. I haven't ripped many BluRays yet... A Serious Man stutters quite a bit and freezes when fast forwarding. District 9 seems to play ok... haven't watched the entire thing. Forrest Gum stutters like crazy.

I am using Twonky and Serviio... both seem to work ok at defaults... I haven't messed around with the rendering profiles at all... yet. :)

I am just not sure what the point of blu ray rips are at this point.... especially on my Oppo. They simply don't work and I can access the wondrous benefit of DTS-HD.

I also wish I was able to have DVD menus and other playback other features on my Oppo... Is there a better format for this... especially one that doesn't pause between chapters. I am currently using MacThe Ripper to duplicate discs... they work perfectly in Plex... but I would really like to take advantage of the upconverting feature of my Oppo

NomadCF
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:38 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by NomadCF » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:47 pm

FYI: This topic has really gotten off track, and is becoming way to unrelated to MakeMKV.

But that being said, you might want to try out : PS3 Media Server
PS3 Media Server is a DLNA compliant Upnp Media Server for the PS3, written in Java, with the purpose of streaming or transcoding any kind of media files, with minimum configuration. It's backed up with the powerful Mplayer/FFmpeg packages.

News

2010/03/28
Updated beta builds available for Windows, Linux and OSX! check the Downloads section. Bugs fixes, internal changes, more features and other renderers support, but maybe less stable. Prefer the 1.10.5 stable version for a first quick look

Current features

Ready to launch and play. No codec packs to install. No folder configuration and pre-parsing or this kind of annoying thing. All your folders are directly browsed by the PS3, there's an automatic refresh also.
Real-time video transcoding of MKV/FLV/OGM/AVI, etc.
Direct streaming of DTS / DTS-HD core to the receiver
Remux H264/MPEG2 video and all audio tracks to AC3/DTS/LPCM in real time with tsMuxer when H264 is PS3/Level4.1 compliant
Full seeking support when transcoding
DVD ISOs images / VIDEO_TS Folder transcoder
OGG/FLAC/MPC/APE audio transcoding
Thumbnail generation for Videos
You can choose with a virtual folder system your audio/subtitle language on the PS3!
Simple streaming of formats PS3 natively supports: MP3/JPG/PNG/GIF/TIFF, all kind of videos (AVI, MP4, TS, M2TS, MPEG)
Display camera RAWs thumbnails (Canon / Nikon, etc.)
ZIP/RAR files as browsable folders
Support for pictures based feeds, such as Flickr and Picasaweb
Internet TV / Web Radio support with VLC, MEncoder or MPlayer
Podcasts audio/ Video feeds support
Basic Xbox360 support
FLAC 96kHz/24bits/5.1 support
Windows Only: DVR-MS remuxer and AviSynth alternative transcoder support

WCVanHorne
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:41 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by WCVanHorne » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:59 pm

OK so I was/am a little confused about this still.

My understanding is that DTS HD is made up of two streams. The first is the old fashioned, lossy, DTS stream, aka core stream and the second is the difference or residual stream that can be added to to the former for a lossless output.

I think the confusion is in how MakeMKV presents the options. You should not be able to select the 'DTS HD Lossless' stream by itself since that is not really possible (although I suppose the lossy DTS core stream might be masked, haven't tried it yet). Since the lossless is a superset of lossy selecting the HD Lossless should not allow the DTS lossy to be unchecked and perhaps the display hierarchy should be reversed. I.E. first level is the core DTS stream and the nested one is the additional residual track to get DTS HD.

This same argument probably applies to subtitles and forced subtitles; ie. I view the full subtitle set being in addition to the minimal requirement of forced subtitles (for things like Klingon) :-).

setarip_old
Posts: 2136
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Re: Which Title / Unchecked Audio?

Post by setarip_old » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:39 pm

@WCVanHorne

Hi!

Perhaps you should consider the reference to "DTS HD Lossless" (In the "Title" options) to mean the audiostream and output that results from adding the superset to the core (standard) DTS audio - and call the superset (which does not/cannot stand alone) "Joe"?

Mathematically, "Core" + "Joe" = "DTS HD"

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