"Cinavia" watermark protection

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dbone1026
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:12 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by dbone1026 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:40 pm

It will definitely be interesting to see where Cinavia goes, I actually just finished writing an article regarding:

http://www.mediasmartserver.net/2011/02 ... ould-care/

The one thing that is still not clear, is there a possibility that Cinavia would be implemented on players that do not require a BDA License? For example, there is talk that players using the Sigma 8642/8643 (NeoTV, Dune, PCH C200/A200) are waiting on Sigma to implement Cinavia in the SDK. Does this mean that Cinavia could technically be pushed on a player based on the chip that is used and not based on the fact that it could act as a commercial Blu-ray player? Obviously for an HTPC user Cinavia isn't as much a threat since there are many alternatives such as MPC, XBMC, VLC, etc... (unless you want full disk playback w/ menus as it sounds like the commercial software players will be getting CInavia sooner then later), but for these dedicated media players Cinavia would have a much larger impact. At a minimum I would expect the hybrid players (such as the PCH C-200, Dune Max, etc...) to disappear, but obviously it is in the best interest of these companies to ensure that Cinavia does not get implemented across all their products.

DVDFab already has a workaround for Cinavia on the PS3 (although you must keep as a folder rip), so I am sure we will start seeing more work arounds in t he coming months.
Cheers,
Damian

blog - http://dbone1026.blogspot.com
MSS.net blog (contributing editor) - http://www.mediasmartserver.net

setarip_old
Posts: 2136
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by setarip_old » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:22 pm

@dbone1026

Hi!

You say:
DVDFab already has a workaround for Cinavia on the PS3 (although you must keep as a folder rip)

What do you mean by "you must keep as a folder rip"? Please clarify.

From the DVDFab forum:
Technical details: the discs created are called BDMV-REC as they are AACS protected recordable BDMV. Another solution would be AACS protected BDAV, like the ones produced by Japanese BD recorders.

Requirements:
•original Blu-ray disc with Cinavia watermark. DVDFab and DVDFab Passkey will tell if you have such a disc
•a BD-RE (recommended for initial tests) or BD-R disc to store the protected backup
•a BD writer
•updated writing software. DVDFab checks for it anyway






dbone1026
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:12 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by dbone1026 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm

setarip_old wrote:@dbone1026

Hi!

You say:
DVDFab already has a workaround for Cinavia on the PS3 (although you must keep as a folder rip)

What do you mean by "you must keep as a folder rip"? Please clarify.

From the DVDFab forum:
Technical details: the discs created are called BDMV-REC as they are AACS protected recordable BDMV. Another solution would be AACS protected BDAV, like the ones produced by Japanese BD recorders.

Requirements:
•original Blu-ray disc with Cinavia watermark. DVDFab and DVDFab Passkey will tell if you have such a disc
•a BD-RE (recommended for initial tests) or BD-R disc to store the protected backup
•a BD writer
•updated writing software. DVDFab checks for it anyway





On the DVDFab site they mention this:
Keep in mind that you can only accomplish this in either "Full Disc" or "Main Movie" mode using Blu-ray Copy, check "Create Protected Disc (BDMV-REC) to disable Cinavia" option, and choose output as BD 50 / BD 25.
So by this I take it the rip must stay in a compliant Blu-ray folder structure in order to create the protected disc (BDMV-REC). You can create an mkv or other format with DVDFab but the Cinavia work around will only apply if keeping the BluRay in a BDMV folder structure (and of course right now this only applies to the PS3).
Cheers,
Damian

blog - http://dbone1026.blogspot.com
MSS.net blog (contributing editor) - http://www.mediasmartserver.net

SamuriHL
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by SamuriHL » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:49 pm

The PS3 doesn't support MKV, so, that part's irrelevant. The structure that DVDFab outputs can be written to disc (and is made for doing so), but, it doesn't actually REMOVE the Cinavia. It, instead, makes the media a "TRUSTED_SOURCE" by adding AACS encryption to it. The Cinavia detection code sees the valid AACS certificate and goes on its merry way.

dbone1026
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:12 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by dbone1026 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:53 pm

SamuriHL wrote:The PS3 doesn't support MKV, so, that part's irrelevant. The structure that DVDFab outputs can be written to disc (and is made for doing so), but, it doesn't actually REMOVE the Cinavia. It, instead, makes the media a "TRUSTED_SOURCE" by adding AACS encryption to it. The Cinavia detection code sees the valid AACS certificate and goes on its merry way.
Well, the question though, what would happen if you played an mkv with Cinavia on the PS3 using transcoding software such as PS3MediaServer. I would assume that the PS3 would flag this file and kill playback? Really the point trying to be made is so people don't see that DVDFab has a workaround for Cinavia and start assuming that it applies to all the formats DVDFab can create
Cheers,
Damian

blog - http://dbone1026.blogspot.com
MSS.net blog (contributing editor) - http://www.mediasmartserver.net

SamuriHL
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by SamuriHL » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:25 pm

dbone1026 wrote: Well, the question though, what would happen if you played an mkv with Cinavia on the PS3 using transcoding software such as PS3MediaServer. I would assume that the PS3 would flag this file and kill playback? Really the point trying to be made is so people don't see that DVDFab has a workaround for Cinavia and start assuming that it applies to all the formats DVDFab can create
Very valid point. The workaround ONLY applies to discs and BD folder structures made by DVDFab, and kept in that structure. If you then make an MKV from it, the Cinavia signal is still embedded in the audio track and will trigger the Cinavia error message. That will happen for ANY format you try to make from the DVDFab created backup because the AACS certificate is removed, and Cinavia will detect the lack of a TRUSTED_SOURCE and kick in the error message. So yes, definitely something to be aware of.

setarip_old
Posts: 2136
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by setarip_old » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:27 am

@dbone1026

Thank you for clarifying - Yes, the BDMV-REC fix by DVDFab ONLY functions successfully in Blu-ray format on a BD or BD-RE disc and is intended for playback on PS3s and possibly some standalone Blu-ray players...





setarip_old
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by setarip_old » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:10 pm

If substantiated, the following might signal the "beginning of the end" for Verance/"Cinavia" protection, at least regarding the many PS3s used for Blu-ray playback:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1 ... tcount=894




trondmm
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:50 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by trondmm » Tue May 10, 2011 3:34 pm

setarip_old wrote: If substantiated, the following might signal the "beginning of the end" for Verance/"Cinavia" protection, at least regarding the many PS3s used for Blu-ray playback:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1 ... tcount=894
I don't really see how it could be "the beginning of the end". Isn't this just another player hack? We're still not closer to actually removing Cinavia, or even knowing how to identify it.

setarip_old
Posts: 2136
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by setarip_old » Wed May 11, 2011 3:44 am

@trondmm

Hi!

From what I've been able to glean on the 'net, the PS3 is far and away the largest percentage of Blu-ray-capable hardware in the world.

If the "Showtime" player is capable of playing backup copies of discs containing Verance/"Cinavia"-watermark protected discs on PS3s without triggering the protection then the protection is defeated. It will be comparable to the human appendix - still present, but utterly useless with regard to PS3s.

With such a large segment of Blu-ray-capable hardware unable to implement this protection, there would seem no purpose in continuing its application...


Figaro56
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:58 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by Figaro56 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:36 am

All that is needed to defeat the Cinavia problem is take the MKV file out of MAKEMKV and use it as input to MKV2VOB program. The open source (no cost, free) MKV2VOB already has figured out a way to prevent the Cinavia from ruining your viewing pleasure. The MKV2VOB will take your 25GIG blu-ray MKV rip and convert it to PS3 compatible files. You need to select the following options:

Configuration Tab.
File Splitting - choose FAT32(4GB), EG the PS3 uses a FAT32 file system
Video transcoding - automatic
Preferred Subtitle Language - none
Output file extension - automatic
Transcoding Codec - MPEG2, EG you Can NOT use xvid
Always Transcode DTS - select it if you don't have a DTS decoder or leave it off if you have a DTS decoder

This will create multiple 4GB files with same-name.part1, part2, etc. So in your PS3 video settings turn sequential playback to on. This will allow the PS3 to automatically switch from part1 to part2 etc.

That's it. Enjoy!

setarip_old
Posts: 2136
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by setarip_old » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:46 am

@figaro56

Hi!

The MKV2vob "solution" you refer to was originally made available in January 2011 by its author "3r1c" - and while all the knowledgable folks who have examined it have found it to be theoretically sound, it apparently has only been successful on a few systems.

Have you personally successfully used this method with a backup disc that DEFINITELY contains Verance/"Cinavia" audio watermarking? (Meaning that if you play the backup DIRECTLY on your PS3, playback will be interrupted by an onscreen "Cinavia" message.)

Here are quotes of both the author of the "fix" and the publisher of the DVDFab line of software:

January 2011 - Slysoft Forum - Posted by the author:

I am the author of that program.
It doesn't convert/transcode to PCM, it does SPDIF conversion.
The PS3 "thinks" its playing a PCM, but really its bitstreaming a DTS to the amp.
Source code
http://www.3r1c.eu/mkv2vob/dtsinpcm.c
I can assure you it does work.

This particular method may not be very useful for anydvd though, it only works on ps3 and requires an external DTS amp, otherwise you just get static.
The same conversion can be applied to any codec such as AC3, but I have not coded that yet.
********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Posted at DVDFab forum by "fengtao" (DVDFab publisher):

Embed DTS core in a PCM track, like in the DTS CDs. There is a special way in which DTS compressed can be stored in a WAV file, for example, and eventualy written on a CD-audio. A player such as VLC will see there is a DTS track inside and decode it correctly; others may not know that and will produce a hissing noise (static). So appart from embedding DTS sound in a PCM track, one absolutely needs an external AV-receiver to decode it.

Pros:
Very good quality, the bitrate of the DTS track is higher than of a AC3 one, from a DVD.
Not detectable by the Cinavia enabled player if it is set to pass-through the audio to an external decoder. This way the information about the source of content is lost and the external decoder has no reason not to decode the audio.

Cons:
Well, there could be a reason: if it does not know how to extract DTS from PCM. We tried this a while ago, but could not find an AV-receiver to cope with the DTS-in-PCM track, so we only mentioned it now to present you all the posibilities, even theoretical ones. This is more like: "what a nice idea, too bad I cannot use it"





trondmm
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:50 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by trondmm » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:57 pm

setarip_old wrote:@trondmm

Hi!

From what I've been able to glean on the 'net, the PS3 is far and away the largest percentage of Blu-ray-capable hardware in the world.

If the "Showtime" player is capable of playing backup copies of discs containing Verance/"Cinavia"-watermark protected discs on PS3s without triggering the protection then the protection is defeated. It will be comparable to the human appendix - still present, but utterly useless with regard to PS3s.

With such a large segment of Blu-ray-capable hardware unable to implement this protection, there would seem no purpose in continuing its application...

My point is that the protection is still present in the files, and you depend on being able to hack the player to be able to play infected files. I predict that more and more players will implement cinavia in the future. I also expect cinavia support to be a requirement to be allowed access to streaming services like Vudu or Netflix. As long as you risk that a media player you buy is unable to play your own private video rips, then Cinavia is still a problem.

Right now, Cinavia is a non-issue, as almost no mediastreamers support Cinavia. I worry about the future, when it's likely that all companies that produce mediastreamers has been strongarmed into supporting it. Mediastreamers get old fast, and I don't particularly want to hold on to my current players for ten years, just because I can't get newer players without Cinavia suppport.

mike admin
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Contact:

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by mike admin » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:44 pm

trondmm wrote:Right now, Cinavia is a non-issue, as almost no mediastreamers support Cinavia. I worry about the future, when it's likely that all companies that produce mediastreamers has been strongarmed into supporting it.
And at that time we'll surely see "remove cinavia" tools on the net. Maybe even integrated in MakeMKV.

nicholfd
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:22 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by nicholfd » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:26 pm

dbone1026 wrote:
SamuriHL wrote:The PS3 doesn't support MKV, so, that part's irrelevant. The structure that DVDFab outputs can be written to disc (and is made for doing so), but, it doesn't actually REMOVE the Cinavia. It, instead, makes the media a "TRUSTED_SOURCE" by adding AACS encryption to it. The Cinavia detection code sees the valid AACS certificate and goes on its merry way.
Well, the question though, what would happen if you played an mkv with Cinavia on the PS3 using transcoding software such as PS3MediaServer. I would assume that the PS3 would flag this file and kill playback? Really the point trying to be made is so people don't see that DVDFab has a workaround for Cinavia and start assuming that it applies to all the formats DVDFab can create
I have done this - the PS3 still recognized Cinavia, dropped the audio and put up the Cinavia notice. The movie Priest was ripped with MakeMKV. Using PS3MediaServer, I served it up with all the defaults to an original PS3 with the latest updates. PS3MediaServer was transcoding the movie on the fly. It was a no go on the PS3.

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