"Cinavia" watermark protection

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Scooby Doo
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:21 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by Scooby Doo » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:45 pm

SamuriHL : But so will playing an original with a product like AnyDVD enabled (unless, of course, you use the cinavia player removal option). Hope this helps clear it up. ??

I have read a reasonable amount on several sites to agree with you, but the above statement ? Are you saying that AnyDVD software can actually remove the Cinavia watermark ?

SamuriHL
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by SamuriHL » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:14 pm

Nope. I am not saying that at all. AnyDVD has the ability to break the Cinavia checking in certain software players (WinDVD, Nero BD player, PowerDVD, and TMT). It is NOT removing Cinavia from the audio stream and ONLY works with those commercial software players.

Scooby Doo
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:21 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by Scooby Doo » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:58 am

SamuriHL wrote:Nope. I am not saying that at all. AnyDVD has the ability to break the Cinavia checking in certain software players (WinDVD, Nero BD player, PowerDVD, and TMT). It is NOT removing Cinavia from the audio stream and ONLY works with those commercial software players.
Ah I see, what you are saying now;
1.) That certain software players that are Cinavia compliant fail to flag the Backup when made by AnyDVD, when being played back from one of the software players from list above.

2.) But are you saying that a Computer with one of the software players from the list above will play a Backup created by AnyDVD even though it never had AnyDVD installed on it ?

3.) Or does it have to have AnyDVD installed on it to break the Cinavia checking when being played back from one of the software players from the list above?

Do you see my point ?

Is AnyDVD actually breaking the checking because it is installed or is it actually breaking the checking by modifying part of the Cinavia watermark that the software players are actually checking ?

Because if it breaking the Cinavia checking when installed then Cinavia will just get the Software players from the list above to modify their code to fix this to continue to be compliant !

Also if the players fail the Cinavia check due to something that AnyDVD does then again Cinavia will get them to do further checks to continue to be compliant !

SamuriHL
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by SamuriHL » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:11 am

It's happening in realtime with the player. The backup has nothing to do with it at all. Cinavia remains in tact in the backup. If you play it on a Cinavia laiden player without AnyDVD's ability to remove Cinavia detection from the player (again, in realtime) then you will trigger Cinavia. If you turn the feature off in AnyDVD, you will trigger Cinavia. If the player is updated and is not on the supported player list for AnyDVD, you will trigger Cinavia. Does this clear it up?

Scooby Doo
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:21 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by Scooby Doo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:47 am

SamuriHL wrote:It's happening in realtime with the player. The backup has nothing to do with it at all. Cinavia remains in tact in the backup. If you play it on a Cinavia laiden player without AnyDVD's ability to remove Cinavia detection from the player (again, in realtime) then you will trigger Cinavia. If you turn the feature off in AnyDVD, you will trigger Cinavia. If the player is updated and is not on the supported player list for AnyDVD, you will trigger Cinavia. Does this clear it up?
So in other words you need to have AnyDVD installed on the PC that you want to play the movie on and with the Cinavia feature turned on to disable Cinavia detection, so that only the players that are supported are fooled into believing that the backup is being played on a BD drive ?
Also this feature is not only software specific but also version specific too - ouch !
So AnyDVD have to work out what each player needs so that it can fool them.

Thanks, its a lot clearer now !

SamuriHL
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by SamuriHL » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:52 am

That's essentially correct, yes. They've been pretty quick to update when new player versions come out, but, without AnyDVD installed, that feature enabled, and a supported player, it will not work and Cinavia will be detected. I personally use it with PDVD14 and it works fine although I think the latest version is not yet supported. I'm sure it will be soon enough.

I'm not sure there's anything mike can do about Cinavia with regard to MakeMKV. Removal is an extremely large challenge. Some have claimed varying degrees of success, but, none have offered an HD audio track free of Cinavia. IMO, avoidance is still the best method...as it has been from the beginning. Make your MKV's and then use a non-commercial player for playback. I get BD quality (and in fact better than most commercial BD players because I use madVR), no Cinavia, and a convenient way of creating a library of my most watched movies playable across my LAN. MakeMKV enables that for me. But it's not going to remove Cinavia from the audio any time soon if ever.

Scooby Doo
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:21 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by Scooby Doo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:25 am

SamuriHL wrote:That's essentially correct, yes. They've been pretty quick to update when new player versions come out, but, without AnyDVD installed, that feature enabled, and a supported player, it will not work and Cinavia will be detected. I personally use it with PDVD14 and it works fine although I think the latest version is not yet supported. I'm sure it will be soon enough.

I'm not sure there's anything mike can do about Cinavia with regard to MakeMKV. Removal is an extremely large challenge. Some have claimed varying degrees of success, but, none have offered an HD audio track free of Cinavia. IMO, avoidance is still the best method...as it has been from the beginning. Make your MKV's and then use a non-commercial player for playback. I get BD quality (and in fact better than most commercial BD players because I use madVR), no Cinavia, and a convenient way of creating a library of my most watched movies playable across my LAN. MakeMKV enables that for me. But it's not going to remove Cinavia from the audio any time soon if ever.
I currently use Handbrake and VLC, and have finally found the settings that I am happy with concerning output and file size.

I am wondering, if you turn of the feature in AnyDVD, how long before the software players display a message about Cinavia ?

I am interested in the shortest time as I want something that does it ASAP, so I can do some investigating myself as waiting for 20 mins for my BD drive to display the message is too long, but if it was 5 mins or less than I have a reasonable chance of locking down where the watermark is in the audio.

I understand it is probably all through the audio, but if I can lock it down to within a few seconds I can then analyze the audio in detail.

My methodical method will be tedious but I have some time on my hand and it will be an interesting project for me.

I will explain my logic in detail if you are interested ?

SamuriHL
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by SamuriHL » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:29 am

I think you misunderstand how detection works. It's detected within seconds (repeated several times to reduce false positives). The 20 minutes is a grace period built into the signal that instructs the player to mute the audio after 20 minutes. If you use a software player like PDVD or TMT and let it detect Cinavia and mute the audio after 20 minutes, thereafter until you reboot it will detect Cinavia immediately. And no, I'm all set with the details...I've studied it since Cinavia was first released in 2010 and see all the "great ideas" tried and failed. I'll simply wish you luck on your investigation.

Scooby Doo
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Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:21 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by Scooby Doo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:45 am

SamuriHL wrote:I think you misunderstand how detection works. It's detected within seconds (repeated several times to reduce false positives). The 20 minutes is a grace period built into the signal that instructs the player to mute the audio after 20 minutes. If you use a software player like PDVD or TMT and let it detect Cinavia and mute the audio after 20 minutes, thereafter until you reboot it will detect Cinavia immediately. And no, I'm all set with the details...I've studied it since Cinavia was first released in 2010 and see all the "great ideas" tried and failed. I'll simply wish you luck on your investigation.
So I have to wait 20 mins to see if its detected, and thats the quickest way - eeek !

You said that once it has detected it once, it will then detect it almost straight away if you play the movie again ?

What about if you play another movie, that has Cinavia, does it reset to 20 mins again or does the player show the Cinavia message straight away ?

SamuriHL
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by SamuriHL » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:47 am

o) Let the player detect a Cinavia movie and mute audio after the 20 minutes.
o) Play a different, or the same, movie without rebooting, and it will detect Cinavia immediately if it contains it.

Scooby Doo
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:21 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by Scooby Doo » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:08 am

SamuriHL wrote:o) Let the player detect a Cinavia movie and mute audio after the 20 minutes.
o) Play a different, or the same, movie without rebooting, and it will detect Cinavia immediately if it contains it.
Ah, thats good, so I just have to wait an initial 20 mins for detection, then play different cut versions to see when it see's and doesn't see the watermark.

OK, that's enough for now.

Thanks for you insight.

trumpet205
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 5:30 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by trumpet205 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:34 pm

Do we have an updated list on BD using Cinavia?

setarip_old
Posts: 2136
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by setarip_old » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:58 pm

@trumpet205

Hi!

You can start by searching for "list of bluray discs with Cinavia"...

jonathan1683
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:04 pm

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by jonathan1683 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:17 am

Hello,

instead of trying to strip it would it not be easier to re-add encryption? Not sure how dumb this sounds I just have not heard anyone bring it up.

JeffR1
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:30 am

Re: "Cinavia" watermark protection

Post by JeffR1 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:18 am

It wouldn't do any good, there are physical markings on a commercial Blu-ray disc (and DVD's) that the player (stand-alone or computer based) look for that can't be included in a copy. Whether that copy is an ISO, MKV, or if the copy is burned to media.

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