HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

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WhiteFeather
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 am

HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by WhiteFeather » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:04 am

I recently got myself a 4K HDR TV and a UHD-friendly drive (thank you jonghotti).

I made my first couple MKVs of some 4K HDR discs and was excited to see how they would look vs the regular SDR blu-rays. To my surprise, the colors are much more saturated and richer on the SDR versions than the HDR versions.

4K UHD rip on the left, regular SDR blu-ray rip on the right:
IMG_20181020_200530.jpg
IMG_20181020_200530.jpg (255.06 KiB) Viewed 6570 times
IMG_20181020_195738.jpg
IMG_20181020_195738.jpg (422.8 KiB) Viewed 6570 times
As you can see, the reds are coming out orange and the deep teal looks washed out.

HDR is enabled on the TV's HDMI port and in Windows 10 for the display.

I don't really actually notice a tremendous difference with HDR on or off other than artifacting in the SDR version when HDR is on.

It was suggested that I try a full backup of the 4K disc instead of making a MKV. I've created a backup but how do I play these? VLC tries to play it but ultimately fails.

My TV is only a Samsung NU7100 which apparently isn't great for HDR but it still seems weird how off the coloring is. Also, as a side note, when the TV has HDR enabled it will flicker to black intermittently if it is set to anything higher than 30Hz in Windows with or without HDR enabled in Windows.

I don't think it's PC hardware related, I'm running an i7 4790k, 16GB DDR3, GTX 1070 and this HDMI cable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003X ... UTF8&psc=1

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks!

jmonier
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:38 pm

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by jmonier » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:56 pm

Note that HDMI 2.0 does not have enough bandwidth to handle RGB (or YCbCr 4:4:4) at 10 bits (which is apparently necessary for HDR) and the result is exactly as you have seen. Note also that this is not just with an HTPC, e.g. if you set an Oppo 203 to RGB (the default is YCbCr) you get the same desaturated colors.

So, try setting your video card to YCbCr 4:2:2. I think that you will find that the problem is fixed. It certainly was for me.

st4evr
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by st4evr » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:28 pm

Additionally, as it has been dicussed and advised countless of times by now in this forum. Do NOT use VLC. It has poorly designed 4k playback.

Learn to use something like MPC-BE/MPC-HC + MadVR for more proper 4k + HDR support on PCs. JRiver is another great all in one 4k player software package. That can play MKVs and full disc structures.

How? Google is your friend. Hundreds of detailed discussions and step-by-step guides on the web regarding this topic already without needing to get into a pages long discussion on it here. JRiver and MadVR have their own very active support forums as well.

SamuriHL
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Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by SamuriHL » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:30 pm

If you're going to be doing HDR playback on a PC, get a player that supports madvr (jriver, mpc, kodi, etc). It has excellent HDR support with dynamic HDR being developed as we speak.

WhiteFeather
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 am

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by WhiteFeather » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:08 pm

jmonier wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:56 pm
Note that HDMI 2.0 does not have enough bandwidth to handle RGB (or YCbCr 4:4:4) at 10 bits (which is apparently necessary for HDR) and the result is exactly as you have seen.
Really? I thought HDMI 2.1 was for 8 and 10k. How does one normally connect a 4K HDR device if not by HDMI? My TV only has HDMI and USB inputs.
Note also that this is not just with an HTPC, e.g. if you set an Oppo 203 to RGB (the default is YCbCr) you get the same desaturated colors.
I don't even know what an Oppo is! =]
So, try setting your video card to YCbCr 4:2:2. I think that you will find that the problem is fixed. It certainly was for me.
What problem did this solve for you, the desaturated colors or the screen flashing? I've set mine to YCbCr 4:2:2 and don't get flashes to black but I do tears and bars that occasionally appear. This happens at 8, 10, or 12 bpc and at 50 or 60 Hz. Everything seems to run fine at 30 Hz though. The colors also don't seem any more saturated. Also, I can only set YCbCr444 to 8 bpc, no other options appear.
st4evr wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:28 pm
Additionally, as it has been dicussed and advised countless of times by now in this forum. Do NOT use VLC. It has poorly designed 4k playback.
What exactly does this mean? Is VLC responsible for the colors being desaturated? Otherwise the movies play fine.
Learn to use something like MPC-BE/MPC-HC + MadVR for more proper 4k + HDR support on PCs. JRiver is another great all in one 4k player software package. That can play MKVs and full disc structures.
I will check these out. If they can solve the color issue, I can just set my TV to 30Hz when watching 4K HDR content and it should be fine.
How? Google is your friend. Hundreds of detailed discussions and step-by-step guides on the web regarding this topic already without needing to get into a pages long discussion on it here. JRiver and MadVR have their own very active support forums as well.
With as much info out there, it's hard to find something that actually applies to this exact situation.

WhiteFeather
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 am

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by WhiteFeather » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:43 pm

Huzzah! I installed MPC-BE and it seems to work great! Colors look much better on both my TV and regular monitor. Can't tell if having HDR enabled on my TV actually improves anything but I'm just happy the colors aren't washed out.

Thank you everyone!

WhiteFeather
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 am

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by WhiteFeather » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:44 pm

Quick follow up question, I didn't install MadVR or any of the LAVfilters. Should I or are they preinstalled?

st4evr
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by st4evr » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:45 am

OPPO in this context often refers to the OPPO-203/205 UHD standalone players. High-end 4K playback equipment.
WhiteFeather wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:44 pm
Quick follow up question, I didn't install MadVR or any of the LAVfilters. Should I or are they preinstalled?
You should. As more than one person already advised that. There is an obvious hint in there somewhere. They go hand in hand and as previously mentioned required for proper HDR playback. We can’t make it any more clear than that. Helpful guide:

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/23 ... n-windows/

Several more like it including some YouTube guides can be found via a Google search.

EDIT: The links in that guide may point to older versions of the softwares discussed there. Googling each piece will yield download sources with the most recent versions and it's recommended.

Lastly, yes there is a lot of info out there. Hence, why YOU need to do some of the leg work and read/research your setup and what best works for YOU. We all had to as all setups are different. So can you. You have to keep in mind that this forum is primarily for MakeMKV support. Each one of those playback apps has their own support forum for a reason as well and they provide lots of answers and learning material for each.

WhiteFeather
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 am

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by WhiteFeather » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:45 am

st4evr wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:45 am
You should. As more than one person already advised that. There is an obvious hint in there somewhere. They go hand in hand and as previously mentioned required for proper HDR playback. We can’t make it any more clear than that.


Sure, but, since I didn't know what any of those things are and just installing MPC-BE made such a huge improvement, how do I know unless I ask?
Yikes ancient guide. Some of the options are different. Couldn't really find something more up to date so I followed this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5rmXHymmnk even though it's for MPC-HC, this person makes some different choices in the options and also installs LAV Splitter.
EDIT: The links in that guide may point to older versions of the softwares discussed there. Googling each piece will yield download sources with the most recent versions and it's recommended.
I noticed, thanks for the tip though!
Lastly, yes there is a lot of info out there. Hence, why YOU need to do some of the leg work and read/research your setup and what best works for YOU. We all had to as all setups are different. So can you. You have to keep in mind that this forum is primarily for MakeMKV support. Each one of those playback apps has their own support forum for a reason as well and they provide lots of answers and learning material for each.
I've done a lot of research and messing around which is how I got here in the first place. I understand that these are their own independent applications, though I don't see support forums for most of them and certainly not one for all of them combined. Remember, I made a post here originally because I wasn't sure if the problem was with my MKV files and I was asking how to play a full backup copy (which I still don't know since MPC-BE doesn't seem to be able to play them either).

With all that said, after installing MadVR and LAV Filters, I only have more issues and am not sure where else to ask. So, unless someone can kindly point me to a more appropriate place, or an official representative of this board tells me otherwise, I am going to continue here and greatly appreciate any insight.

1. Audio only plays for a split second if I have 5.1 selected and only plays stereo if stereo is selected - fixed by just disabling audio mixing in LAV Audio options

2. Play back is inconsistent, like sometimes it just doesn't want to play or causes my monitors to go black/lose signal. Actually I just moved it from my TV to my main monitor and now I can't use my main monitor at all (reads no signal). Hopefully a restart fixes that.

3. Crushes my blacks. When I move MPC-BE onto my TV, the colors in Windows get crushed (i think that's the term). I just tried changing my display to a TV rather than a PC monitor in MadVR and will see if that helps after a reboot.

st4evr
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by st4evr » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:18 am

Have you tried JRiver? Does that one work any better on your setup?

You have to pay for a license, but they do provide a trial period. On some setups, that player can work better. The trial should give you more than enough time to play around with it and see if it’s a better fit.

WhiteFeather
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 am

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by WhiteFeather » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:12 am

Just checked out JRiver and the colors look the same as VLC.

I think I'll just stick with MPC-BE without adding MadVR or LAV Filters. I honestly couldn't really tell if they improved anything. Sure, it would be nice to get the HDR but apparently my TV doesn't really even support true HDR (whatever that actually means).

I'm pretty happy with 4K quality and the correct colors even without HDR.

Only issue I am having with MPC-BE is that I have my TV set to 225% scale in Windows and MPC-BE resizes with it. With VLC, the interface got larger but not the video. I don't want Windows 10 rescaling my movies. I tried googling the issue but didn't come up with much. Tried registering for Doom9's forum but apparently I need to wait 5 days after registering to post.......

WhiteFeather
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 am

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by WhiteFeather » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:25 am

Scratch that last issue. Just verified that windows is not rescaling anything. The window is just getting larger and the video is resizing to meet it. If I fix the size of the video then change the scaling in Windows, the video stays the same size.

jonghotti
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Location: Earth

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by jonghotti » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:14 am

Really solid discussion. I told you Steve is the fucking best!
The Original "UHD Friendly" Drive Seller
https://www.makemkv.com/forum/viewtopic ... 20&t=17829

st4evr
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by st4evr » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:05 am

“Crushed blacks” is when you lose detail in shadows. An example would be areas in an image that were supposed to be more on the gray side (shades of gray) with detail present, but are instead present as all black and you lose the detail that was there. Often making the image look darker than it’s supposed to be.

Something sounds weird about your TV based on your last replies and the way it’s handling the SDR/HDR content/colors.

Based on the model number you mentioned it should at least handle standard HDR10 metadata.

Recommend that:

1. Disable anything Windows 10 HDR setting for the TV. Let the TV handle the HDR content. Not let Windows interfere. In other words pass-through. An example, I am very familiar with an HTPC setup that is also attached to a Samsung UHD TV with HDR. Slightly older TV model than yours with HDR10 capabilities. JRiver and MPC-BE are both being used with MadVR and in MadVR the content is being passed directly to the TV successfully. HDR is triggered on the TV when UHD content with HDR is played on either software player with MadVR. Windows 10 HDR settings are all off/disabled. There is a post in this link:

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topi ... 070-to-tv/

That shows how to setup MadVR to pass-through HDR content if you have not done so already.

When you do this, what happens?

2. In JRiver enable Red October HQ in settings. More on it here:

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Red_October

Does it make any difference?
Last edited by st4evr on Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:24 pm, edited 7 times in total.

st4evr
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: HDR colors muted on HDR enabled TV

Post by st4evr » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:09 am

jonghotti wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:14 am
Really solid discussion. I told you Steve is the fucking best!
Lol. Thanks, but nope, nope. Just an average nerd here. :wink:

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