Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

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shawnc22
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Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:40 am

Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by shawnc22 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:39 pm

bgalakazam wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:45 am
Over a year later and I still see tons of issues with DV playback on Shield and tons of hoops to get it to run. While the X700 still plays UHD rips and tsmuxer muxed to .TS, for less money. Any smart TV has plex/kodi/dlna apps... I just don't see the appeal for spending $200 on a device that requires so many hurdles to go through to get DV and can't even play bluray disks. Smart TVs already have apps. Why is the shield so praised then?
People like to focus on DV, but lossless audio is just as crucial, and you’re never going to get that support from a smart TV. Just because the same apps exists does not mean they function in the same manner as the Shield. The current workflow is just rip with makemkv 1.15.4 and you’re good to go. That’s not a lot of hoops to jump through, and most people will take this simplicity over the flaws in the picture accuracy.

Sparky101
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Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:05 pm

Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by Sparky101 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:52 pm

bgalakazam wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:45 am
Over a year later and I still see tons of issues with DV playback on Shield and tons of hoops to get it to run. While the X700 still plays UHD rips and tsmuxer muxed to .TS, for less money. Any smart TV has plex/kodi/dlna apps... I just don't see the appeal for spending $200 on a device that requires so many hurdles to go through to get DV and can't even play bluray disks. Smart TVs already have apps. Why is the shield so praised then?
Because there aren't tons of issues with DV playback on the Shield. Use the current version of the Plex client, remux with latest MakeMKV same as we were all doing before DV came along and it all works fine. So for me personally, I've not had to change my setup, my workflow or how I watch and now I can enjoy DV content via my Shield. That's the appeal. And has already been pointed out, that's DV movies with Atmos, DTS-HD etc. audio tracks, chapters, PGS subtitles etc.

cipher
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:16 am

Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by cipher » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:37 am

bgalakazam wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:45 am
Over a year later and I still see tons of issues with DV playback on Shield and tons of hoops to get it to run. While the X700 still plays UHD rips and tsmuxer muxed to .TS, for less money. Any smart TV has plex/kodi/dlna apps... I just don't see the appeal for spending $200 on a device that requires so many hurdles to go through to get DV and can't even play bluray disks. Smart TVs already have apps. Why is the shield so praised then?
shawnc22 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:39 pm
People like to focus on DV, but lossless audio is just as crucial, and you’re never going to get that support from a smart TV. Just because the same apps exists does not mean they function in the same manner as the Shield. The current workflow is just rip with makemkv 1.15.4 and you’re good to go. That’s not a lot of hoops to jump through, and most people will take this simplicity over the flaws in the picture accuracy.
Sparky101 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:52 pm
Because there aren't tons of issues with DV playback on the Shield. Use the current version of the Plex client, remux with latest MakeMKV same as we were all doing before DV came along and it all works fine. So for me personally, I've not had to change my setup, my workflow or how I watch and now I can enjoy DV content via my Shield. That's the appeal. And has already been pointed out, that's DV movies with Atmos, DTS-HD etc. audio tracks, chapters, PGS subtitles etc.
All true. As well, many users and their family members prefer a professionally designed UI like that offered by Plex with all it's additional benefits (separate profile accounts, historical tracking, skip intro credits etc). For years, I used my Oppo 103D with my MKV rips instead of playing the discs due to the convenience factor. While it offered great quality, having to use it's clunky file navigation UI was the single biggest drawback for my family.

The Shield has some issues, but it's easily the best streaming device available today when it comes to Audio/Video support. They along with software vendors like Plex do run into issues which can take a while to solve, but no other platforms offer the potential for future fixes for as long as they do.

morbius
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by morbius » Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:46 am

The Shield has some issues, but it's easily the best streaming device available today when it comes to Audio/Video support. They along with software vendors like Plex do run into issues which can take a while to solve, but no other platforms offer the potential for future fixes for as long as they do.
I agree the Shield has much to commend it. However, some potential buyers might feel that the ability to auto-switch the display framerate to match the content is essential for Netflix, Disney+ etc. While the Shield supports 4K DV for Netflix etc, there is no global setting (that I have been able to find) to allow the Shield to automatically output 24p for 24p sources (which comprises a huge amount of the catalogue from these streaming vendors). There is a primitive in-play beta setting to match framerate to content (which I have found to be almost useless), but set next to an Apple TV, with its global framerate autoswitching across the major streaming vendors, this is a glaring feature omission. For me this a deal-breaker for using the Shield with these services, though at least framerate autoswitching works for Plex and Kodi. Of course the ATV has plenty of issues, not least the lack of hi-res audio passthrough, and neither Plex nor Infuse seem able to handle interlaced video correctly on the ATV, but perhaps that's a limitation of the ATV itself.

I also run a couple of Vero 4K's, they have a niche benefit of supporting HDR10+ on the latest test kernel, but the Shield's DV and 4K Netflix would trump that.

If the Shield could get proper framerate switching for the main streaming providers I'd rate it as a phenomenal all-in-one package, but as it stands I'm resigned to running it alongside my ATV for Netflix/Disney+, as fidelity to the content framerate is my first user requirement in any playback system. I don't think the Shield will lead me to retire my Vero 4K's just yet, but the overall value-proposition for the Shield vs the Vero 4K does seem heavily in the Shield's favour, though when it comes to technical support, the OSMC team are just peerless in my experience.

glc650
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Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:25 pm

Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by glc650 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:10 am

morbius wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:46 am
The Shield has some issues, but it's easily the best streaming device available today when it comes to Audio/Video support. They along with software vendors like Plex do run into issues which can take a while to solve, but no other platforms offer the potential for future fixes for as long as they do.
There is a primitive in-play beta setting to match framerate to content (which I have found to be almost useless), but set next to an Apple TV, with its global framerate autoswitching across the major streaming vendors, this is a glaring feature omission.
You do realize that Apple TV devices only do 23p and not 24 (so 24.000 content (i.e. most Netflix content) is played back at 23.976)?

morbius
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by morbius » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:47 pm

I have no blu-ray or UHD discs with a framerate of exactly 24p that I am aware of, so 23.976 would seem correct? I’d rather take the ATV for Netflix over the 60Hz from the Shield any day.

morbius
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by morbius » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:01 pm

A further note / question to @glc650. Is it the case that content shot for Netflix etc is published in true 24.000 ? Even if shot at 24.0, wouldn’t it be published for consumer use in 23.976? In which case, how is it relevant that the ATV does not support 24.0 ? A genuine question, not trying to score a point.

glc650
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by glc650 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:16 pm

morbius wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:01 pm
A further note / question to @glc650. Is it the case that content shot for Netflix etc is published in true 24.000 ? Even if shot at 24.0, wouldn’t it be published for consumer use in 23.976? In which case, how is it relevant that the ATV does not support 24.0 ? A genuine question, not trying to score a point.
Most of Netflix's content that I watch/have seen is true 24.000 (that is how it is recorded and provided to customers of the service - same for Prime Video). I found the only way to avoid/not see the judder caused by playing 24.000 content back at 23.976 was to turn frame rate matching off and set the output to 60 (which is actually 59 on Apple TV devices) and let my TV (Sony XBR75Z9F) handle 23/24 content within a 59/60hz signal (which it does very well). This is half the reason why I recently sold my Apple TV 4K - the fact it doesn't bitstream which I believe to be the root causes of an annoying Atmos bug on Netflix is the other half.

morbius
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by morbius » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:53 pm

Most of Netflix's content that I watch/have seen is true 24.000 (that is how it is recorded and provided to customers of the service - same for Prime Video).
how does one verify that the content is indeed authored for broadcast/streaming at 24.0 ? When I pull up the mediainfo for my "24p" mkv's they are 23.976. So for example, the series "Better Call Saul" is available on Netflix, my blu-ray sourced mkv's for this series are 23.976. Are you saying that the Netflix version might be streamed at 24.0 (in which case the ATV slightly slows down), or could Better Call Saul have been authored at 23.976 in the first place, in which case the ATV has the correct speed?

glc650
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by glc650 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:45 pm

morbius wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:53 pm
Most of Netflix's content that I watch/have seen is true 24.000 (that is how it is recorded and provided to customers of the service - same for Prime Video).
how does one verify that the content is indeed authored for broadcast/streaming at 24.0 ? When I pull up the mediainfo for my "24p" mkv's they are 23.976. So for example, the series "Better Call Saul" is available on Netflix, my blu-ray sourced mkv's for this series are 23.976. Are you saying that the Netflix version might be streamed at 24.0 (in which case the ATV slightly slows down), or could Better Call Saul have been authored at 23.976 in the first place, in which case the ATV has the correct speed?
This really applies to just Netflix originals. Most US shows (and movies although there are some 24.000 BR's out there) are still filmed at 23.976 so if that show eventually makes its way to Netflix it will stay at 23.976. It's the originals that all seem to be filmed at 24.000. There's an on going list at avsforum of Netflix (and I think Prime Video) originals that are 24.000. The only time in the last year+ that I have seen a non-24.000 Netflix original is when it was in PAL format.

dcoke22
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by dcoke22 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:06 pm

23.976 frame rate is a bit of a historical artifact from NTSC standards in the analog era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rat ... _standards

There's a phenomenon called 'dot crawl' that was reduced by lowering color TV frame rates by 0.1%, making traditional interlaced 60-field-per-second TV display at 59.94. Lowering the frame rate of 24 fps movies to 23.976 makes the 3-2 pulldown math workout for 59.94 NTSC signal; essentially it is the same 0.1% speed reduction. This is a historical decision that isn't really useful in the age of digital displays that aren't tied to the frequency of mains power.

I have read that Netflix (and others) often makes their Netflix Original movies at exactly 24 fps and streams them that way. It is unlikely anyone would notice the difference between 23.976 and 24. On the Apple TV 4K, which apparently can't actually do exactly 24 fps, you might notice the occasional dropped frame as it 'catches up' with actual 24 fps content.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/apple- ... o.2961262/

archer75
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by archer75 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:25 pm

glc650 wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:16 pm
morbius wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:01 pm
A further note / question to @glc650. Is it the case that content shot for Netflix etc is published in true 24.000 ? Even if shot at 24.0, wouldn’t it be published for consumer use in 23.976? In which case, how is it relevant that the ATV does not support 24.0 ? A genuine question, not trying to score a point.
Most of Netflix's content that I watch/have seen is true 24.000 (that is how it is recorded and provided to customers of the service - same for Prime Video). I found the only way to avoid/not see the judder caused by playing 24.000 content back at 23.976 was to turn frame rate matching off and set the output to 60 (which is actually 59 on Apple TV devices) and let my TV (Sony XBR75Z9F) handle 23/24 content within a 59/60hz signal (which it does very well). This is half the reason why I recently sold my Apple TV 4K - the fact it doesn't bitstream which I believe to be the root causes of an annoying Atmos bug on Netflix is the other half.
I have an ATV4k and I don't have any judder at all on my LG B6. Everything on netflix is perfectly smooth. No atmos bug either. I leave framerate matching on.
Set the TV's deblur and dejudder to 2 and 9, or 9 and 2, I don't recall. Either way it removes any judder and there's NO soap opera effect either. I know purists hate to do that but you can't tell a difference.

morbius
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by morbius » Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:39 pm

It's the originals that all seem to be filmed at 24.000. There's an on going list at avsforum of Netflix (and I think Prime Video) originals that are 24.000
Interesting. I think it fair to say though that a lot of content on Netflix/Amazon/Disney+ will indeed be native 23.976 (thinking about it, this is in fact what I have been watching, hence no judder from the ATV, and why I am so unimpressed by the Shield). Are there any devices that run official Netflix that auto-switch between 23.976 and 24.000 ? I just checked a couple of Netflix Originals via the unofficial Kodi app, and it reported 23.976 fps, but that's by no means conclusive.

glc650
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Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by glc650 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:22 pm

archer75 wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:25 pm
I have an ATV4k and I don't have any judder at all on my LG B6. Everything on netflix is perfectly smooth. No atmos bug either. I leave framerate matching on.
Set the TV's deblur and dejudder to 2 and 9, or 9 and 2, I don't recall. Either way it removes any judder and there's NO soap opera effect either. I know purists hate to do that but you can't tell a difference.
My TV has similar settings but I don't like the results. Not everyone has noticed the Atmos bug. I think it is hardware specific and due to Apple converting the bitstream to PCM.
morbius wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:39 pm
It's the originals that all seem to be filmed at 24.000. There's an on going list at avsforum of Netflix (and I think Prime Video) originals that are 24.000
Are there any devices that run official Netflix that auto-switch between 23.976 and 24.000 ?
I haven't found any. If Apple would just enable integer frame rates then their devices would. The Roku Netflix app hasn't supported frame rate matching in a while (and I've read that the new Ultra has the opposite problem - does 24.000 but not 23.976 - but I haven't confirmed that yet since I just turn frame rate matching off and output 60hz and let my TV do the rest). I have no idea what Android TV devices do. Shield is similar to the Apple TV 4K in that it is too expensive to have all the stupid little issues it has and I hate Android anyway so won't bother with devices like Shield. I've basically given up on streaming devices and frame rate matching. I have a X800M2 for DV BR and that seems to handle 23/24 properly and I have my HTPC with madVR (which is exceptional at handling all frame rates) for HDR10 BR and everything else so I don't really care about frame rate matching with online content.

morbius
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:17 am

Re: Dolby Vision and 1.15.1

Post by morbius » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:36 am

Looking back on the last few posts, I wonder if, among the devices on the market that run official versions of the major streaming apps, a device exists that is even as good as the ATV in terms of framerate matching, never mind better? Notwithstanding the lack of 24.000 support, the ATV auto-matches to all the mainstream consumer refresh rates (including BBC iPlayer, outputting 50Hz automatically). The Shield does not do this, and nor did the Firestick when I briefly owned one. I've watched a lot of films from Disney+ with Atmos passthrough to my AVR and had absolutely no issues. So as a streaming platform, it's not clear to me if anything out there matches it with official apps?

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