Forced subtitles

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j1simon
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:05 am

Forced subtitles

Post by j1simon » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:19 pm

makemkv 1.9.7
Ubuntu 14.04 64 bits

1) When I open any BR, makemkv shows 2 entries for each subtitle stream: the normal and the forced. But sometimes there isn't forced subtitles, Why does it show them?

2) When it creates a MKV from BR with forced subtitle, the subtitle track in MKV doesn't have the forced flag activated.

ndjamena
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Forced subtitles

Post by ndjamena » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:33 pm

1) MakeMKV can't know if a subtitle track contains elements flagged as forced until it finds one. The Matroska forced flag is in the files headers, it doesn't allow the forced attribute to be set within individual frames, so the forced elements must be removed from the subtitle track and placed in their own track. MakeMKV initially creates a secondary subtitle track just for this purpose, but if it turns out there were no forced elements within a particular track it's companion forced track is removed once the rip has been completed.

2) support for the forced flag is kind of patchy. Very few hardware players (if any) actually support it, and even many software players just ignore it. Add to that, not all forced subtitle tracks are created from forced elements. Java titles have their own method of determining forced subtitles, plus it's quite possible to wind up with 2 forced subtitles of the same language, I've had one normal forced subtitle and one SDH version, and in another case one US forced subtitle and a UK version (and they were both flagged, I guess I should have checked if that was actually a Java title).

j1simon
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:05 am

Re: Forced subtitles

Post by j1simon » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:49 am

ndjamena wrote:1) MakeMKV can't know if a subtitle track contains elements flagged as forced until it finds one. The Matroska forced flag is in the files headers, it doesn't allow the forced attribute to be set within individual frames, so the forced elements must be removed from the subtitle track and placed in their own track. MakeMKV initially creates a secondary subtitle track just for this purpose, but if it turns out there were no forced elements within a particular track it's companion forced track is removed once the rip has been completed.
The source is a bluray, not Matroska file.
ndjamena wrote:2) support for the forced flag is kind of patchy. Very few hardware players (if any) actually support it, and even many software players just ignore it. Add to that, not all forced subtitle tracks are created from forced elements. Java titles have their own method of determining forced subtitles, plus it's quite possible to wind up with 2 forced subtitles of the same language, I've had one normal forced subtitle and one SDH version, and in another case one US forced subtitle and a UK version (and they were both flagged, I guess I should have checked if that was actually a Java title).
The Popcorn VTEN recognizes forced subtitles.
In any case, if I rip a bluray with forced subtitles, and I select it to pass to MKV, by definition and because the MKV format allows it, that track should be marked as forced. It's a minimal change but it saves work additional to users. I have to edit the MKVs generated by makemkv to set those tracks to forced.

ndjamena
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Forced subtitles

Post by ndjamena » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:10 pm

j1simon wrote:
ndjamena wrote:1) MakeMKV can't know if a subtitle track contains elements flagged as forced until it finds one. The Matroska forced flag is in the files headers, it doesn't allow the forced attribute to be set within individual frames, so the forced elements must be removed from the subtitle track and placed in their own track. MakeMKV initially creates a secondary subtitle track just for this purpose, but if it turns out there were no forced elements within a particular track it's companion forced track is removed once the rip has been completed.
The source is a bluray, not Matroska file.
Which is the whole point. MKV and Blu Ray set forced tracks using different, incompatible methods. Blu Ray style must be converted to MKV style and for that to happen the forced subs must be separated from the main track.
j1simon wrote:
ndjamena wrote:
ndjamena wrote:2) support for the forced flag is kind of patchy. Very few hardware players (if any) actually support it, and even many software players just ignore it. Add to that, not all forced subtitle tracks are created from forced elements. Java titles have their own method of determining forced subtitles, plus it's quite possible to wind up with 2 forced subtitles of the same language, I've had one normal forced subtitle and one SDH version, and in another case one US forced subtitle and a UK version (and they were both flagged, I guess I should have checked if that was actually a Java title).
The Popcorn VTEN recognizes forced subtitles.
In any case, if I rip a bluray with forced subtitles, and I select it to pass to MKV, by definition and because the MKV format allows it, that track should be marked as forced. It's a minimal change but it saves work additional to users. I have to edit the MKVs generated by makemkv to set those tracks to forced.
If the Popcorn VTEN supports Matroska style forced subs then there will be a lot of people who will be very happy to here it.

MakeMKV probably should be flagging forced subs as forced. Instead there's an option in the profile to set the first forced sub to default, I don't recall ever seeing it working but I tend to reprocess all my files afterwards.

In any case, Java titles don't flag their forced subtitles in any way MakeMKV can detect, so ripping Blu Rays will always be a pain in the arse, if you really don't want to waste time setting the forced flag afterwards, assuming you're using the GUI, you can always just set all of the forced subtitles to forced manually before you rip, whatever is left in the end will keep the flag.

j1simon
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:05 am

Re: Forced subtitles

Post by j1simon » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:34 pm

ndjamena wrote:In any case, Java titles don't flag their forced subtitles in any way MakeMKV can detect, so ripping Blu Rays will always be a pain in the arse, if you really don't want to waste time setting the forced flag afterwards, assuming you're using the GUI, you can always just set all of the forced subtitles to forced manually before you rip, whatever is left in the end will keep the flag.
If I select a forced subtitle track in makemkv to rip it in mkv, makemkv it saves or it don't (if it's empty) in final MKV. So makemkv detects the forced subtitles when it rips them, no? The next step is so simple like set MKV forced flag to 1. What's the trouble then?

ndjamena
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Forced subtitles

Post by ndjamena » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:14 pm

The problem with your reasoning is that you seem to think MakeMKV implements feature requests, that just means you haven't been doing this for long.

For the most part the developer of MakeMKV spends time bypassing copy protection and working around badly or oddly authored discs, and doesn't bother improving minor features that may convenience some users.

Personally, I take these files apart and put them back together again after ripping, and I'm sure a lot of other people do in one way or another. Getting MakeMKV to set a forced flag has never actually occurred to me, and would be more of an annoyance than anything. It will always miss all the Java forced subtitles, so I'll have to check every file anyway.

j1simon
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:05 am

Re: Forced subtitles

Post by j1simon » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:31 pm

ndjamena wrote:The problem with your reasoning is that you seem to think MakeMKV implements feature requests, that just means you haven't been doing this for long.
For the most part the developer of MakeMKV spends time bypassing copy protection and working around badly or oddly authored discs, and doesn't bother improving minor features that may convenience some users.
Are you makemkv develover?
It isn't a feature request, it's a bug (with low priority, of course). A forced subtitle must be flagged as it is, like in source medium.
ndjamena wrote:Personally, I take these files apart and put them back together again after ripping, and I'm sure a lot of other people do in one way or another. Getting MakeMKV to set a forced flag has never actually occurred to me, and would be more of an annoyance than anything. It will always miss all the Java forced subtitles, so I'll have to check every file anyway.
If you don't mark the forced subtitle, you'll have no problem.

ndjamena
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Forced subtitles

Post by ndjamena » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:49 pm

There's no "set forced subtitles as forced" option in the profiles, so it's not a bug.

Not all forced subtitles on a Blu Ray are flagged as forced, and sometimes it's possible to have more than one forced subtitle in a single language.

You're falling into the trap of thinking whatever happens to be sitting in front of you is of vital importance, and is as simple as flicking a switch and it will solve all your problems.


There's an option in the profile to set the forced subtitle as default. If that doesn't work then THAT would be a bug.

Chetwood
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:16 am

Re: Forced subtitles

Post by Chetwood » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:33 am

j1simon wrote:What's the trouble then?
Apparently that you can't be bothered to use the search function before posting. So, for the umpteenth time: MakeMKV (as pretty much any other ripper out there) does NOT detect forced subs that are not flagged but activated by navigational commands.
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