Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

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Grencola
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by Grencola » Thu May 23, 2019 3:22 am

tango306 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:44 am
You are missing the point and do not understand the benefit of DV.
12-bit source and signal shows improvement on 10-bit panel. Period. This has been proven many times if you search.

Now, back to my original question, is DV muxed into MP4 container, degrades in any way or form when played back on DV capable display such as LG OLEDs and/or Oppo-203?
oh no, I get it. Dolby claims 12-bit dv can be down-sampled in such a way as to render 10-bit color more accurately, yada yada. I just honestly can't tell the difference, nor can a whole forum of people with better eyes than mine. versus hdr10 however, absolutely there's a massive change.
Also I've done so many back to back tests between these mp4's and playing the actual 12-bit discs and I don't see any difference, minus the odd artifact here or there. but I also don't have an oled with an Oppo udp-203 so I suppose I could be slightly missing out.

Grencola
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by Grencola » Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 am

sm0ke83 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:53 pm
Hi Grencola, a lot of progress with your tool i see (posted a few times on other forum, mrmc, same topic).
I've converted about 20 movies i guess with mp4muxer, DV is definitely a big improvement over HDR.
Don't understand why i can't get it to work with mkv's, only m2ts works for me. Tried about 6 times with different movies (always use cmd btw.).
Progress finishes same as with m2ts, but not playable, continuous stutter.
Read this topic; not many people have this issue, am i right? Tried opening MKV with MKVToolNix, but no errors or option to "correct" the file (saw your post about this might solve things).
I always use scene/p2p-rleases from torrents (I own dvd's and blu-rays...)
Any idea what might be the problem here?
Thnx.
yea it's come a long way ;) have you tried using it at all instead of your own tsmuxer demuxing / cmd prompt commands? it uses eac3to which pretty much never errors and I've made over 30 mp4s from mkv remuxes that work just as well as m2ts files. I also found that Western Digital hdd's plays them waay better than Seagate for some reason, using the exact same file on both drives. also if they're in a sub-folder instead of the root of the drive they stutter and error and play terribly.

sm0ke83
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:28 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by sm0ke83 » Thu May 23, 2019 6:48 am

Grencola wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 am
sm0ke83 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:53 pm
Hi Grencola, a lot of progress with your tool i see (posted a few times on other forum, mrmc, same topic).
I've converted about 20 movies i guess with mp4muxer, DV is definitely a big improvement over HDR.
Don't understand why i can't get it to work with mkv's, only m2ts works for me. Tried about 6 times with different movies (always use cmd btw.).
Progress finishes same as with m2ts, but not playable, continuous stutter.
Read this topic; not many people have this issue, am i right? Tried opening MKV with MKVToolNix, but no errors or option to "correct" the file (saw your post about this might solve things).
I always use scene/p2p-rleases from torrents (I own dvd's and blu-rays...)
Any idea what might be the problem here?
Thnx.
yea it's come a long way ;) have you tried using it at all instead of your own tsmuxer demuxing / cmd prompt commands? it uses eac3to which pretty much never errors and I've made over 30 mp4s from mkv remuxes that work just as well as m2ts files. I also found that Western Digital hdd's plays them waay better than Seagate for some reason, using the exact same file on both drives. also if they're in a sub-folder instead of the root of the drive they stutter and error and play terribly.
I use eac3to from your program/archive and same command as u use in the two cmd files. Because I prefer 2 physical disks, I put in the commands manually. Don’t see why root/folder/mapped network drive would make a difference in creating the mp4, but will try with your program on local drive only to be sure.
I stream from NAS to LG tv with dlna. Root folder, u mean when playing or when creating mp4 file? No stutter with m2ts though which also uses eac3to. Last movie I tried is “The Witch”, HEVC-Blu-ray is fine, remux fails/stutters.

Greets

tango306
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:29 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by tango306 » Thu May 23, 2019 11:47 am

Grencola wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:22 am
tango306 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:44 am
You are missing the point and do not understand the benefit of DV.
12-bit source and signal shows improvement on 10-bit panel. Period. This has been proven many times if you search.

Now, back to my original question, is DV muxed into MP4 container, degrades in any way or form when played back on DV capable display such as LG OLEDs and/or Oppo-203?
oh no, I get it. Dolby claims 12-bit dv can be down-sampled in such a way as to render 10-bit color more accurately, yada yada. I just honestly can't tell the difference, nor can a whole forum of people with better eyes than mine. versus hdr10 however, absolutely there's a massive change.
Also I've done so many back to back tests between these mp4's and playing the actual 12-bit discs and I don't see any difference, minus the odd artifact here or there. but I also don't have an oled with an Oppo udp-203 so I suppose I could be slightly missing out.
12-bit contents looks better than 10-bit contents even on 10-bit panel just like 4K contents looks better than 1080p contents even on 1080p panel.
(And SACD (DSD) and DVD-A (MLP) sound better than redbook CD even on loudspeakers whose frequency response range is no where near high/low enough to cover those high resolution audio sources).

That being said, if this muxed DV MP4 is degraded from DV's native 12-bit to 10-bit, we are not seeing a true DV.
And if somehow 12-bit is degraded into 10-bit in muxing process, who know what else is borked in the chain.

Grencola
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by Grencola » Thu May 23, 2019 2:17 pm

tango306 wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:47 am
12-bit contents looks better than 10-bit contents even on 10-bit panel just like 4K contents looks better than 1080p contents even on 1080p panel.

That being said, if this muxed DV MP4 is degraded from DV's native 12-bit to 10-bit, we are not seeing a true DV.
And if somehow 12-bit is degraded into 10-bit in muxing process, who know what else is borked in the chain.
opinions are like butt holes, we all have one :)
https://www.quora.com/Does-a-4K-Blu-Ray ... -Ray-movie
anyway, if you really think these mp4s are so borked simply don't use them. go spend thousands on an Oppo / discs / whatever and enjoy seeing the display info show 12-bit on your 10-bit panel. you're clearly not the target demographic for these files, as they're for those of us who don't have the most expensive setups and like saving lots of money on something your eyes can barely, if at all, perceive.

tango306
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:29 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by tango306 » Fri May 24, 2019 1:06 am

Grencola wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:17 pm
tango306 wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:47 am
12-bit contents looks better than 10-bit contents even on 10-bit panel just like 4K contents looks better than 1080p contents even on 1080p panel.

That being said, if this muxed DV MP4 is degraded from DV's native 12-bit to 10-bit, we are not seeing a true DV.
And if somehow 12-bit is degraded into 10-bit in muxing process, who know what else is borked in the chain.
opinions are like butt holes, we all have one :)
https://www.quora.com/Does-a-4K-Blu-Ray ... -Ray-movie
anyway, if you really think these mp4s are so borked simply don't use them. go spend thousands on an Oppo / discs / whatever and enjoy seeing the display info show 12-bit on your 10-bit panel. you're clearly not the target demographic for these files, as they're for those of us who don't have the most expensive setups and like saving lots of money on something your eyes can barely, if at all, perceive.
Now, I think you are not only missing the point but also not reading before replying. Spending thousands on Oppo-203 and diskcs are completely irrelevant here. Lol.
I do not think DV muxed MP4 are borked. (There is a *if*)
Most of (if not all) Dolby Vision contents are mastered at native 12-bit. This is locked down at mastering/authoring stage. My question was if Oppo-203 reporting the MP4 being played is in 10-bit was true or not? Whether anyone has done any verification on it? It might still be in 12-bit MP4, but due to Oppo's firmware bug reporting it as 10-bit for MP4 file playback. Who knows?
Grencola wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:22 am
Also I've done so many back to back tests between these mp4's and playing the actual 12-bit discs and I don't see any difference, minus the odd artifact here or there. but I also don't have an oled with an Oppo udp-203 so I suppose I could be slightly missing out.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. What display did you use?

deadchip12
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 2:49 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by deadchip12 » Fri May 24, 2019 1:43 am

Hi Grencola, I’m using your program to make dolby vision mp4 file. The first few movies were flawless, but with the recent one Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, the program initially detected dolby vision layer but after some time running it displayed a bunch of red texts saying there is no dolby vision track and file’s damaged or sth. Any idea? The movie still plays fine in hdr10, and I can still see the dv layer in tsmuxerGUI

Grencola
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by Grencola » Fri May 24, 2019 3:46 am

tango306 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:06 am
Now, I think you are not only missing the point but also not reading before replying. Spending thousands on Oppo-203 and diskcs are completely irrelevant here. Lol.
I do not think DV muxed MP4 are borked. (There is a *if*)
Most of (if not all) Dolby Vision contents are mastered at native 12-bit. This is locked down at mastering/authoring stage. My question was if Oppo-203 reporting the MP4 being played is in 10-bit was true or not? Whether anyone has done any verification on it? It might still be in 12-bit MP4, but due to Oppo's firmware bug reporting it as 10-bit for MP4 file playback. Who knows?
Grencola wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:22 am
Also I've done so many back to back tests between these mp4's and playing the actual 12-bit discs and I don't see any difference, minus the odd artifact here or there. but I also don't have an oled with an Oppo udp-203 so I suppose I could be slightly missing out.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. What display did you use?
I was sticking up for the mp4s a bit cuz you said, "And if somehow 12-bit is degraded into 10-bit in muxing process, who know what else is borked in the chain." but nothing seems to be degraded in the chain was all.
perhaps I got a bit defensive, and misinterpreted your words, sorry :p I can't verify it myself as I don't own an Oppo, but I have read on avsforum of people saying the same thing with 12-bit content showing up as 10-bit, while others replying not to worry as there's no difference, citing links to various tests etc. (basically where I got my influences from heh). Anyway regardless of all that, I've only tried with Vizio's p65 and m65 (usb) and LG's C8 (plex) displays so I'm definitely not the best person to be determining what's really going on. I'll try and find the forum link so you can talk to people with more experience.

tango306
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:29 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by tango306 » Fri May 24, 2019 6:24 am

Grencola wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:46 am
I was sticking up for the mp4s a bit cuz you said, "And if somehow 12-bit is degraded into 10-bit in muxing process, who know what else is borked in the chain." but nothing seems to be degraded in the chain was all.
Well then, *if* what Oppo-203 is reporting is true, what makes DV's native 12-bit into 10-bit in the process? After all, optimal muxing is about not touching quality but retaining pristine original bit for bit data.

*If* Oppo-203's reporting is false, then any other way to verify integrity of DV's native quality ?
Grencola wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:46 am
perhaps I got a bit defensive, and misinterpreted your words, sorry :p I can't verify it myself as I don't own an Oppo,
No need for an apology. However, your misunderstanding goes a few posts above before I mentioned anything about MP4 being borked. It started with your panel nonsense.
Grencola wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:46 am
but I have read on avsforum of people saying the same thing with 12-bit content showing up as 10-bit, while others replying not to worry as there's no difference, citing links to various tests etc. (basically where I got my influences from heh). Anyway regardless of all that, I've only tried with Vizio's p65 and m65 (usb) and LG's C8 (plex) displays so I'm definitely not the best person to be determining what's really going on. I'll try and find the forum link so you can talk to people with more experience.
I've been with AVS Forum since 2002. I can't seem to find threads/posts related to this DV MP4 mux. Can you provide a link?
That being said, people claiming no differences between native 12-bit DV disc and degraded(?) 10-bit (if true) MP4 files are irrelevant. After all, there are many, many, many people who cannot tell the difference between 128kbps mp3s and redbook CDs.

I think important points to consider are:
1. To investigate and find out *if* DV is really degraded from its native 12-bit into 10-bit during the muxing process.
2. The root cause of color depth change in the muxing process.
Some food for thoughts. :)

sm0ke83
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:28 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by sm0ke83 » Fri May 24, 2019 11:00 am

Grencola,

I tried your dv-mp4-maker on local mkv. Result is the same, stutters continuously... Didn't expect a different output, but did test it to be sure.
Any idea what might be causing this? FYI: Haven't been able to make a working mp4 from mkv, not even one.

greetz

sm0ke83
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:28 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by sm0ke83 » Fri May 24, 2019 11:16 am

tango306 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:24 am
Grencola wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:46 am
I was sticking up for the mp4s a bit cuz you said, "And if somehow 12-bit is degraded into 10-bit in muxing process, who know what else is borked in the chain." but nothing seems to be degraded in the chain was all.
Well then, *if* what Oppo-203 is reporting is true, what makes DV's native 12-bit into 10-bit in the process? After all, optimal muxing is about not touching quality but retaining pristine original bit for bit data.

*If* Oppo-203's reporting is false, then any other way to verify integrity of DV's native quality ?
Grencola wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:46 am
perhaps I got a bit defensive, and misinterpreted your words, sorry :p I can't verify it myself as I don't own an Oppo,
No need for an apology. However, your misunderstanding goes a few posts above before I mentioned anything about MP4 being borked. It started with your panel nonsense.
Grencola wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:46 am
but I have read on avsforum of people saying the same thing with 12-bit content showing up as 10-bit, while others replying not to worry as there's no difference, citing links to various tests etc. (basically where I got my influences from heh). Anyway regardless of all that, I've only tried with Vizio's p65 and m65 (usb) and LG's C8 (plex) displays so I'm definitely not the best person to be determining what's really going on. I'll try and find the forum link so you can talk to people with more experience.
I've been with AVS Forum since 2002. I can't seem to find threads/posts related to this DV MP4 mux. Can you provide a link?
That being said, people claiming no differences between native 12-bit DV disc and degraded(?) 10-bit (if true) MP4 files are irrelevant. After all, there are many, many, many people who cannot tell the difference between 128kbps mp3s and redbook CDs.

I think important points to consider are:
1. To investigate and find out *if* DV is really degraded from its native 12-bit into 10-bit during the muxing process.
2. The root cause of color depth change in the muxing process.
Some food for thoughts. :)
Hi tango306,

Read your discussion with Grencola...
I'm having trouble creating good mp4 from mkv. Been reading on this forum for that and it's hard ignore the discussion :P
...I was wondering why u think original UHD Dolby Vision Blu-ray discs are 12-bit? Or did I misunderstood?
A few months ago (when DV profiles was being discussed) I found this pdf from Dolby Laboratories, maybe u find this interesting:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologie ... levels.pdf

Nowhere in this file is 12-bit mentioned... Look at table 1 at page 9, only 10-bit HEVC is being used in DV profiles.

fib1985
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 11:36 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by fib1985 » Fri May 24, 2019 4:19 pm

sm0ke83 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:00 am
Grencola,

I tried your dv-mp4-maker on local mkv. Result is the same, stutters continuously... Didn't expect a different output, but did test it to be sure.
Any idea what might be causing this? FYI: Haven't been able to make a working mp4 from mkv, not even one.

greetz
I Got the same results as you, i guess the app have some problems. With the powershell script it works like a charm.

Grencola
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by Grencola » Fri May 24, 2019 6:14 pm

sm0ke83 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:00 am
Grencola,

I tried your dv-mp4-maker on local mkv. Result is the same, stutters continuously... Didn't expect a different output, but did test it to be sure.
Any idea what might be causing this? FYI: Haven't been able to make a working mp4 from mkv, not even one.

greetz
That's definitely strange. You've tried both tsmuxer and eac3to and both result in an unplayable file but yet m2ts is fine? I'm really not sure how to help :( I just watched Ready Player One in its entirety and it worked perfectly. It was made with my app (so eac3to) from mkv. In fact I've made over 30 mp4's from mkv with only like 5 or so from m2ts and I don't get this stutter bug :( I know we have different TV's, but you'd think there would waay more people complaining on here, instead of praising mp4muxer if it just didn't work. You could maybe try demuxing each track individually before you run mp4muxer.

Grencola
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by Grencola » Fri May 24, 2019 6:19 pm

fib1985 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:19 pm
sm0ke83 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:00 am
Grencola,

I tried your dv-mp4-maker on local mkv. Result is the same, stutters continuously... Didn't expect a different output, but did test it to be sure.
Any idea what might be causing this? FYI: Haven't been able to make a working mp4 from mkv, not even one.

greetz
I Got the same results as you, i guess the app have some problems. With the powershell script it works like a charm.
My 'app' is literally just a command prompt script to run eac3to on the file, then mp4muxer. that's basically it. I chose to use eac3to as so many people, myself included, were getting framerate errors in TSMuxer during the demux where as eac3to actually tries correcting them. like I said above I've used my app on 30+ titles which are great. The only bug I've ever seen is when I copied those exact movies onto a friend's seagate hdd from my western digital and it came up saying the file format was not supported when playing certain files. still don't have a fix for that. but the ones that did play had no stuttering at all.

sm0ke83
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 12:28 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by sm0ke83 » Sat May 25, 2019 8:53 am

Grencola wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:14 pm
sm0ke83 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:00 am
Grencola,

I tried your dv-mp4-maker on local mkv. Result is the same, stutters continuously... Didn't expect a different output, but did test it to be sure.
Any idea what might be causing this? FYI: Haven't been able to make a working mp4 from mkv, not even one.

greetz
That's definitely strange. You've tried both tsmuxer and eac3to and both result in an unplayable file but yet m2ts is fine? I'm really not sure how to help :( I just watched Ready Player One in its entirety and it worked perfectly. It was made with my app (so eac3to) from mkv. In fact I've made over 30 mp4's from mkv with only like 5 or so from m2ts and I don't get this stutter bug :( I know we have different TV's, but you'd think there would waay more people complaining on here, instead of praising mp4muxer if it just didn't work. You could maybe try demuxing each track individually before you run mp4muxer.
I only used eac3to, will give it a try with tsmuxer and try to demux each track individually with eac3to. My TV is LG 55SK8500PLA.
And indeed I would say a lot more people are using mkv as source and more people would have this issue... This is part of why I'm kind of determent to solve this. I would like to know if output is the same (hash check) when we would both use exact same source. Also is it possible for you to cut a sample of 2 minutes from your working mp4 (which had mkv as source) and upload so I could test?
And is there another forum where this mp4 muxing is being discussed? The more input the better I guess.
Thnx

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